Talk:Kingdom of Prussia

1815

Why does this article end in 1815? john 04:54, 7 February 2004 (UTC)

Prussia lasted until 1933

It was no kingdom after 1918, but it was the largest state in Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.130.230.192 (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2005 (UTC)

Kingdom of Prussia and Prussia

Why do this article and Prussia act as though they aren't aware of each other's existence? This should probably be merged, or turned into a brief article about the political unit. john k 22:21, 14 February 2005 (UTC)

One solution is to make Prussia a disambiguation page. Space Cadet 01:20, 15 February 2005 (UTC)

I don't think Prussia should be a disambiguation page. What's wrong with the current Prussia article? It's certainly far better than this article. Are you suggesting that we split the contents of Prussia between the disambiguation article, Kingdom of Prussia and something like Free State of Prussia? I would oppose this. To me, it makes more sense to just merge Kingdom of Prussia into Prussia and save any useful stuff from the former. john k 05:15, 15 February 2005 (UTC)

I would second this last opinion. Let's canibalize the "Kingdom of Prussia" article in favour of "Prussia"!Pelagus 17:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. "Prussia" means many different things throughout Wikipedia (which can easily be seen by seeing what links to the article):

• "Borussia", the land (currently without an article, I believe) of the Old/Baltic Prussian people
• the "Borussian" lands of the Teutonic Knights (the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights)
• Ducal Prussia and Royal Prussia
• Brandenburg-Prussia
• the Kingdom of Prussia

• the Free State of Prussia (currently a redirect)

I am of the opinion that Prussia should be a significantly shortened semi-disambiguation page (as it was before this edit) briefly describing the historical evolution of "Prussia", while detail should go into the relevant articles. I think that the Prussia article was too detailed even before the recent changes to it. Another suggestion would be to have Prussia as a disambiguation page, have History of Prussia (currently a redirect) be a relatively short summary page (shorter than History of England), and then have the aforementioned individual articles describing Prussia's history at specific time periods in a "History of Prussia" series. Olessi 18:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Prussia, as part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation and Prussia as a German kingdom are surely of political differences, but always of German identity! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.140.82.198 (talk) 19:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

I agree. the two articles should be merged into "The Kingdom of Prussia" because the subject is the same. Their is no point of having two articles that contain the same information on the same subject.--Martin8768 14:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

In WikiProject Former Countries, we're trying to make articles both for long-lived countries that changed rank, whilst essentially being the same country (eg Duchy of Prussia → Kingdom of Prussia → Free State of Prussia etc) and for each of these ranks. Prussia should, imho, be a summary page that gives a brief overview of how Prussia evolved from the Old Prussians to the Free State, with {{main}} links to each of the rank articles (eg Duchy of Prussia). Certainly I believe quite strongly that we shouldn't remove any of those articles.

So I'm roughly agreeing with Olessi :o) — OwenBlacker 12:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a great difference between the Kingdom of Prussia and current day Prussia. This should not be merged into one page because they both have totally different governments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.185.191.19 (talk) 13:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

FA class on Portuguese wiki

The Portuguese version of this entry has received FA-status. Given my non-knowledge of Portuguese, the content of this article does not look too different to this one, except that the English version does not have any references. If enough references are given (and the page is cleaned up a bit), maybe we could have FA too. - 52 Pickup 19:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Languages?

Just curious... What languages were spoken in Prussia over the years? Surely a variety. But what was/were the language(s) of state? How were various languages/dialects consolidated into German? Any expertise here would be a welcome addition. Smilo Don (talk) 17:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• german was the official language in prussia. in older time the high nobility speaks french. in east prussia there where a minority of masurian people and some lithuanians, some polish people also. but the most of the east-prussians spoke a german dialect. in other parts of prussia the people spoke other german dialects, some spoke low german and so on. in the north (schleswig-holstein) there were big minorities of danish and friesian people, but only german was an official language. germany had many dialects. if you look for old office-letters they are writen in german or latin, it depends of the time.

Enkidu78 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.143.115.182 (talk) 11:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Map

I think it would be a good idea to puts some labels on the map, naming the Baltic Sea and some surrounding countries. I know, of course, where Prussia was, but when I first saw the map, I though I was looking at a South-up view of the Mediterranean Sea. It took me about ten seconds to figure out where I was. For someone reading the article who doesn't even know where Prussia was to begin with, I would think it could be quite befuddlesome. Whind Soull (talk) 00:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

German or Prussian?

In 1876, would it have been more common to refer to Königsberg as a German city or a Prussian city? I realize it was technically both, but we're trying to decide how to properly refer to the city over in the Emma Goldman article. One editor wants to refer to it as "the Prussian capital of Königsberg" while another perfers just "Königsberg, Germany". Which is the better choice? Please reply here. Thanks! Kaldari (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Double page

Hi, I think we have a double article here, on one hand, we have an article on Prussia, and on the other hand an article on Kingdom of Prussia. I think these two can be combined. Robin.lemstra (talk) 13:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Succeeded by North German Confederation?

The Kingdom of Prussia was a sovereign state from 1701 to 1866/67, when the North German Confederation was established. The question then is: should we change (or add) the North German Confederation as a successor to the Kingdom of Prussia in the info box? Johnny83m (talk) 00:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Hopelessly POV Section

Quoting Rothbard on the subject of compulsory education in Prussia is a blatant violation of the NPOV policy as it makes the assumption that compulsory education is despotic with no alternative vie offered. An article of the historical kingdom of Prussia of all things is not the place to push Rothbard's theories, least of all framing them as if they are a uncontroversial and mainstream academic contribution to the subject. Ideally the section should be deleted or failing that countered with a quotation from a more mainstream source showing Rothbard's position to be very much a fringe one. As it stands it is both biased and an example of giving undue weight to a certain unusual view.--Iain3217 (talk) 19:11, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

How does it begin?

I know nearly nothing about Prussia, but I think there is one section missing: How does the Kingdom of Prussia begin? It must refer to Duchy of Prussia and Treaty of Wehlau. --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 04:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I added a small background section with the relevant links. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:50, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Redirect from Prussia

Please weigh in at Talk:Prussia#Redirect_to_Kingdom_of_Prussia_per_WP:PRIMARYTOPIC_and_WP:CFORK. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

King in Prussia

The title "King in Prussia" was adopted only because title "king of Prussia" was held by king of Poland. "King of Prussia" title was adopted by prussian king in 1772 after First Partition of Poland, as a result Prussia incorporated Royal Prussia which was formerly part of Poland-Lithuania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.21.15.76 (talk) 15:58, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Your information is not valid. Fredrick was given the name Kingdom in Prussia because at the time, The Holy Roman Empire would not allow any other kingdoms. So, he was given the name King in Prussia until he could convince them that Prussia was never a part of The Holy Roman Empire. That is when Prussia was given the name Kingdom of Prussia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.185.191.19 (talk) 13:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Relationship with modern day Ghana

I removed Ghana from the list of territories but then quickly scanned the Brandenburger Gold Coast article. There is indeed a relationship between the Kingdom of Prussia and the modern Ghanaian state. It would be helpful to have an explanation of that relationship in this article, as opposed to just mentioning Ghana in the middle of a list of European countries. Perhaps a separate section would be best. As it was, however, it looked so out of place that I first assumed it was vandalism. If you understand the history of Prussian colonialism in Africa, I would encourage you to add some language about this interesting and important relationship. —giso6150 (talk) 23:30, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Is there a reason why Bismark is not mentioned in the introduction?

See subject. I am by no means an expert in the subject but Bismark is... well... Bismark. He brought more glory to the Prussian crown than just about anyone - that alone merits at least a mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:646:4201:2598:5DB3:2429:8544:D87 (talk) 13:24, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Preußenlied Instrumental.ogg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Change of flag?

I have noticed that the flag has been changed to Flag of the Kingdom of Prussia (1803-1892) from Flag of Prussia (1892-1918), the reasoning being that the older flag was in use for a longer period of time and when Prussia was an indepedent state.

Is this a change that should be kept? What do other editors think? LittleCuteSuit (talk) 01:12, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Russian Control of Modern Prussia

Either here -- or in the article on the geographic region of Prussia -- there might be discussion of how modern Russia (successor to Russia SSR/USSR) controls the last sliver of Prussian territory (i.e. old Koenigsburg). The Allies did eliminate the legal status of Prussia as a sovereign entity -- but what is the status of Russia's control over this oblast (i.e. unconnected territory) and is there any pressure to allow the population to decide for itself whether to return to the old name of Prussia? This is one of the last remaining issues from WW1-WW2 and given that the state of Germany has (finally?) relinquished claims to Polish Silesia and such -- the lost territories)....perhaps now is the time for discussion about the revival of the Prussian state. A unified Germany without Prussia would not be under the spell of Prussian militarism (?) and the oblast is very very small. Of course, much of the original Prussian population fled after the Soviet invasion in WW 2. Are there any movements/sources recommending independence for the oblast around Koenigsburg? Chesspride 216.144.161.51 (talk) 18:24, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

"that constituted the state of Prussia"

This is bizarre wording designed, I think, to shoehorn in a link to Prussia. It should be emended. Srnec (talk) 00:23, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Seems like a legitimate statement and links.  Not done Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:20, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Flag changes

For people reverting 173.187.121.242 (talk) changes to the flag (Wesoree and Vif12vf) you may be interested that they are trying to do a similar thing at Prussia. I have tried to engage them on the talk page (Talk:Prussia#Flag), but they have thus far continued without providing any concrete reasons for these changes. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 15:45, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I saw their edits to that article last night after they had already been reverted. All of the affected articles are on my surveillance-list, so I will do what I can when I see their edits. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

they are also on my radar. I will probably report them to WP:AN3 if they continue. -- Wesoree ^{(talk·contribs)} 16:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

They've been blocked for a year now. Nothing to do here. -- Wesoree ^{(talk·contribs)} 16:26, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

german history

1.franks 2.holy roman empire 3.prussia 4.german empire 5. nazi germany 6. west and east germany 7. federal germany 119.111.148.171 (talk) 01:53, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

You forgot about the North German Confederation 95.24.0.205 (talk) 15:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Flag

Which flag must be used. The last flag of Prussian Kingdom (1892-1918) or the flag with the most years in using (1803-1892)? Νίκος Αστέρης (talk) 11:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Name for Mysterious Lithuanian part?

what was that mysterious small Lithuanian part called when it was under Prussian rule? Do they have a name for it? 95.24.0.205 (talk) 15:01, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Flags (again)

The status quo, in use for 6 years	TheodoresTomfooleries's proposal for 2 flags/Coa
Kingdom of Prussia Königreich Preußen (German) State flag (1803–1892) Coat of arms (1701–1871)	Kingdom of Prussia Königreich Preußen (German) Flag (1701-1750) Flag (1892-1918) Coat of arms (1701-1892) Coat of arms (1892-1918)
For people coming to this discussion these are the versions of the infobox under contention Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 09:44, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

@TheodoresTomfooleries, before you re-vert to your preferred version again (and keeping in mind the BOLD) can you please use the talk page to explain your change (and gain a WP:consensus) before going any further. You refer to other pages, but per WP:OTHERCONTENT, this shouldn't necessarily have bearing here.

There are far more than just these two sets of flags/coa used by the kingdom over its existence (see Flag of Prussia) so I don't see the reason for cluttering the infobox up with a (relatively) shortly used version, that wasn't even used when it was an independent state. You might want to also link to Policies and/or guidelines that support your position. For my part MOS:IBP: The less information that an infobox contains, the more effectively it serves its purpose seems to support the minimalist position here. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 22:01, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Cake, I've looked through the articles for "Prussia" and "Kingdom of Prussia", which is when your proposed flag should have been used, went in the talk page and looked through the archives and not a single time has any editor attempted to make consensus on this through the talk page. There was no discussion about changing the flag, there was no debate about it, and there certainly was no vote on it either.

I've looked through this page's edit history and as far as I'm aware, the first edit to change the flag was made by Havsjö, who did not attempt to reach consensus with other editors and instead edit warred to force the flag back in, which a minority of editors- including you- have also done. By this standard, the issue of needing to reach a consensus falls on you, not on me, because the "consensus" before this was to include the 1892-1918 flag.

"There are far more than just these two sets of flags/coa used by the kingdom over its existence"

And why does this matter? Wikipedia infoboxes aren't going to include every single flag or coat of arms ever used by a country. You're attempting to frame the inclusion of a state's first used and last used flag and coat of arms as being "cluttering" by implying it's somehow equivalent to including every single flag and coat of arms. Those two weren't chosen arbitrarily, they were chosen because they follow a pattern used across multiple articles which I have already named. If you can give me the name of an article where the longest-used flag of a historical state is used in place of the first and last flags (or the last flag in general), please do tell, because I haven't been able to find any.

You refer to other pages

Yes, I do. This isn't OTHERCONTENT either. I'm not saying that the first and last flags should be used because one article does this. I'm saying such because almost every article about a historical state does this. Again, here's a list!

Ottomans, Russian Empire, Yugoslavia, Polish People's Republic, Kingdom of Greece, East Germany, Republic of China (1912-1949), Mongolian People's Republic, Joseon, Kingdom of Afghanistan, Pahlavi Iran, Russian SFSR, the Republics of the Soviet Union in general, (and it too) Socialist Republic of Romania, People's Republic of Bulgaria, Hungarian People's Republic, Gran Colombia, Empire of Brazil, Union of South Africa and many, many more pages. I, of course, again invite you to link a page that uses the longest-used flag. Until then this page is a single outlier, not the norm.

So, if you want a 'simpler' infobox, and you also keep in mind the consensus reached by all the articles I've mentioned above and more, you would use the 1892-1918 flag of Prussia. It doesn't matter if that flag was used when "Prussia wasn't independent". It has no bearing on whether or not it should be included or not. TheodoresTomfooleries (talk) 04:25, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

That it has been the stable status quo for 6 years (and multiple people over time have reverted to it {e.g. Wesoree and Vif12vf}) suggests that you need to Disucss your bold change when reverted. That is the normal process here. Wikipedia infoboxes aren't going to include every single flag or coat of arms ever used by a country. exactly, I don't see why we need two when one does just fine. they were chosen because they follow a pattern used across multiple articles I think you'll find that many historical states don't (2, 3, 4, to name but 3). In fact a bunch of the above links give one flag. Which flag we use, is decided on a case by case basis. But that's the point of WP:OTHERCONTENT, you should make an argument about why you think that the change improves this article. If there is a consensus on all articles of historical states, you should link me to that discussion or WP:MOS section, and not just the WP:LOCALCON of some other articles.

To the point at hand, I fail to see any reason you've presented so far why this article needs 2 flags, and of the many flags that where used, I think the one that was used when Prussia at the height of its influence as an independent state (note also, not its first) is the best to be used. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 07:51, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

I'm tired at the moment, but my point still stands. I also included countries like 2, 3 and 4 because I'm including both countries that use their first and last flags and countries that use their last flag. TheodoresTomfooleries (talk) 08:55, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

For 3 and 4 these weren't the first and or last. However, that's beside the point, that there's no way to know that that's the reason why that particular flag was used. I'd contend in all the presented cases these are either the only or most notable flag(s) and/or the flag(s) used a the most notable time of the polity. It's understandable that that's often the first or last flag, but there is no need for it to be so (if there was it would be somewhere in WP:MOS, which, as far as I know, it isn't), and I don't believe that this ~30yr flag is that, for K. of Prussia.

However, I'm quite happy to see what others think and go with whatever the consensus is for this article. In the spirit of wider participation, I've posted a notice to WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 09:22, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

I tend to prefer the version with both flags on the right. It adds more information without being overbearing. Der Eberswalder (talk) 10:29, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

As I said above, I tend subscribe to the view described at MOS:IBP: The less information that an infobox contains, the more effectively it serves its purpose. There's already a link to Flags of Prussia. I also wonder, if we have two flags, are these the two we want? And do we need both sets arms when they're essentially (heraldically speaking) the same thing? Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 11:18, 11 February 2025 (UTC)